God often used more than one channel of communication at the same time. Most prophets didn’t work with others to spread messages from God. Most of them worked independently.
Prophets were used while the priesthood also communicated his will. And at the same time the Jewish priesthood and prophets were used, Jewish kings existed. God used some of those kings to spread messages to his people.
Even before there were Jewish kings God raised up leaders, known today as judges, to lead his people. Judges communicated God’s will to his people. The time period of judges also overlapped with the Jewish priesthood.
God even occasionally used people who were not Israelites or even proselytes to communicate messages, as in the case of king Nebuchadnezzar. Once Nebuchadnezzar regained sanity he recognized God for who he is. And Nebuchadnezzar’s statement is recorded in the Bible. Though there is no evidence Nebuchadnezzar became a proselyte.
Must God Use Only One Organization Today?
So why did God use these prophets and kings to communicate messages, after establishing the priesthood to facilitate communications with his people? It’s because God uses whoever and whatever he pleases to accomplish whatever he wants. God is not limited by a human’s belief that he must act a certain way, as Watchtower asserts. Watchtower is emphatically stating God always used one organization of people, and so he must continue to do so. But God does whatever he wants. Had he used one organization, that would not make him do the same thing today.
But in fairness to Watchtower, let’s examine its argument more fully. Watchtower bases its argument on Christians being told to get out of Babylon the Great as the end approaches. And Watchtower teaches Babylon the Great is false religion. So let’s give them that. Do those facts prove God is using only one organization today? What about those ideas would prove that? Nothing.
First, in light of what Christ said in the latter half of Matthew chapter 24 and Luke 21:8 Christians will not know when the end is approaching. Second, telling Christians to get out of false religion does not prove all God’s communications today come filtered through one organization. Those facts just don’t prove that. Plus God didn’t work that way in the past. Even though false religions existed in the past.
So, getting back to Watchtower’s argument that Jehovah only used one organization to communicate in the past, therefore he must do that today. Well, that idea is proven incorrect. But does that mean he cannot filter all his communications through one organization today? No. He can do whatever he wants. But it does mean God is unlikely to do that. Making that even more unlikely is the fact God’s written message spread throughout the world. When God communicated in Old Testament days it hadn’t. Since God used multiple channels of communication while his messages were limited to a small geographic area, why wouldn’t he use multiple channels now that those messages are global?
Watchtower moves where the money is. Years back Watchtower allowed Jehovah’s Witnesses members in Mexico to carry government cards claiming they’d received military training and were enrolled in the army reserves. Some of the Watchtower members who carried the military card were circuit overseers and pioneers appointed by Watchtower. Some were missionaries. Only Witnesses in that country were allowed to do that, as that action violated Watchtower’s policy on political neutrality. Why did Watchtower allow that? Was it because back then Watchtower was not registering itself as a religion with the Mexican government?
Because had Jehovah’s Witnesses refused to obey the Mexican law requiring men to receive military training and join the army reserve, then Watchtower’s cover as a nonreligious charity would have been blown. That is if they refused because of their religious beliefs attached to Watchtower. And then Mexico would have treated Watchtower as the religion it really was. Watchtower claimed it was a nonreligious charity then.
Why didn’t Watchtower want to be treated as a religion in Mexico? Back then religions were prohibited from buying properties. So instead of renting properties like religions did, Watchtower bought properties, as a nonreligious charity. Once that law changed allowing religions to buy properties Watchtower registered as a religion in Mexico.
The hypocrisy of that act is not the worst thing about it. You see during this same time period African Jehovah’s Witnesses in the country of Malawi were prohibited by Watchtower from purchasing a 25 cents government card. Even though there was only one political party in Malawi at the time. The result of not buying that card caused Witnesses in Malawi to get raped and imprisoned. Some had their homes burned down. Some might have been killed. Watchtower was aware of what was happening to its members there, because Watchtower sent messages to every Jehovah’s Witnesses congregation, asking members to write Malawi’s government requesting it stop the atrocities.
So while Watchtower let Witnesses in Mexico violate its policy on political neutrality, and join the army reserve, Watchtower let Witnesses in Africa get raped, jailed, have their homes burned down, and maybe even killed rather than allowing them to buy a 25 cents government card. I’ll never forget one of the statements Watchtower put in its literature that was sent to all congregations around the globe. Watchtower wrote brothers and sisters in Malawi were being jailed, stripped naked, and naked brothers and sisters were put in the same cell with their pubic hairs tied to each other. Their jailers doing that wanted to see if the Witnesses would have sex with someone they weren’t married to.
Yes Watchtower knew that was going on, because they told us it was happening in Malawi. But do you think they told us that brothers in Mexico were carrying government cards claiming they received military training and were registered in the army reserves? No! If we did that Watchtower would have disfellowshipped us.
Was there any financial incentive for Watchtower to waive its neutrality policy for the brothers and sisters in Malawi? No! Was there a financial incentive for Watchtower to waive its neutrality policy in Mexico? Yes! Could that be the reason for the double standard?
Information about Mexico taken from Ray Franz’s books, In Search of Christian Freedom & Crisis of Conscience
A positive thing about Lloyd (John Cedars): As a Christian I was treated better on his channel, JW Survey, than I was treated as a commenter on two Christian channels. I was a commenter on JW Survey for years. And I’d debate ideas with atheists on JW Survey up the ying yang. But never did any of Lloyd’s editors (Lloyd himself, John Redwood, or Covert Fade) silence me, insult me, or delete one of my comments.
After years of commenting on JW Survey I was invited by one of that channels commenters to check out beroeans.net. After checking it out I started commenting there. While commenting on beroeans.net if I didn’t agree with a point of view expressed in one of their articles then sometimes a couple of their commenters got nasty, and insulting. And sometimes on beroeans.net even when debating others in very civil debates editors on beroeans.net would tell us to move on, and not to discuss that topic anymore. That’s something that NEVER happened on Lloyd’s Survey channel. Finally the owner of beroeans.net sent me a private email demanding I change my tone or get bounced off his site. Well that was it for me there. Since my tone was fine, and it was his brown nose followers that were insulting me, I told the site’s owner it wasn’t my tone but my ideas that were obviously his objection. So I said I’m not coming back.
I also commented on christianforums.com for a while. That is until christianforums.com censored me and told me one of its editors must question me, to ascertain if I believe in the Trinity doctrine, before the site would allow me to comment further. If I didn’t believe in the Trinity doc they wouldn’t let me comment anymore. Again, that kind of crap was never done on Lloyd’s channel. So that was it for christianforums.com for me. I wasn’t about to say I believed or didn’t believe in anything to satisfy their administrators. That sounded like being in the backroom with three JW elders asking if you believe in the “faithful and discreet slave.” What’s the difference? I see none. Again, that kind of crap never happened on Lloyd’s channel.
At the end of this post I’ll direct you to another website to view evidence that drives home these points. Spend time looking at it. If so, the ideas in this post should be evident to you.
People who God does not save want to do things their own way. We all want that. But they want it to the exclusion of following God’s ways. And that’s why he doesn’t save them.
Oh, many of them might claim, “If I really knew there was a god I would follow him.” Think about that statement for one minute. Don’t you know if that was true God would make sure those people knew he exists? After all, he makes sure we know he exists. If God knew they would follow him he would see they knew that also. Because he is not partial. He is not favoring one personality over another. God only wants things done his way because he is God. And since God sees the future he knows what we will do.
Most people who do follow God do not get upset when ideas about God are shared or even debated with them. They talk about the ideas and might even discuss whether an idea is true or not. For them there is nothing to get excited about, because they view such discussions as sharing ideas.
Some people, who don’t want to follow God, get upset when ideas about God are shared. Why? Because they don’t want to hear them. Why not? Aren’t those just ideas to them also? No they are not. So why don’t they want to hear it unless it’s an idea they agree with? Because right away, even though you might just share an idea, they think: “Stop telling ME what to do.” Or they think, “You cannot tell me what to do, think, or believe.”
The fact is when we’re sharing ideas we are not telling anyone what to believe or do. So if they are saying that to us really they are thinking that thought about anyone that doesn’t believe what they do, while sharing ideas about God with them. That’s one of the reasons people killed Christ. It was because of his ideas about God that he shared with them.
Most people like this won’t admit you must think like them to share such thoughts. But that’s really what they want. The reason they want that is because their belief is that everyone has a right to believe whatever he wants about God, and do whatever he wants with that belief. But while that thought might sound good to you, scripturally it’s not true. It’s grounded in the United States Constitution, but it isn’t in the Bible. God grants a privilege but not a right to believe ideas that go against his authority. And most people who get mad when you just share biblical ideas with them know that. And that’s why they say you are trying to assert your will over theirs. Because they know biblically God asserts his will over all others, and they attach that thought to what you share. Even if you don’t bring it up it’s present in their mind.
At the end of this article I’ll send you to another website. The purpose I’m sending you there is to view some comments from commenters on this other website. I didn’t view all of those, just a half dozen or so. But most of the ones I read caused a thought to come to mind. I thought how Satan first came up with an idea not to serve God. And then once that idea spread among angels those that followed him might have sat around, like the commenters on this other site, telling God’s angels:
Stop telling us what to believe.
Stupid, your way is not the only way.
We don’t need to hear that.
I love our leader the Devil; or the Devil is the most loving, and we should all choose what we want.
Notice how that thought is expressed over and over again on this site I’ll send you to. However, their comments are directed towards me, not an angel. And I didn’t even need to tell them that they should follow God to receive such comments. I didn’t even share a scriptural thought with them. Instead, someone turned over an article I wrote to the host of the site. And he spent over an hour venting about the article I wrote. In most of his rant he misrepresented what I said and believe. Why did he do it? For the reasons I stated above.
In the article I listed him as an ex-Jehovah’s Witness who most likely does not accept Christ as God. I wrote that after viewing his videos. So that wound him up for a whole hour, even though he admitted that he isn’t a Christian in the video. For him someone saying that about him was not just an idea, whether true or not true. For him it was, “You cannot tell me what to believe!” And he states that in his video. To him, me telling you, I don’t believe this guy is a Christian, meant STOP TELLING ME WHAT TO DO!!!!
Furthermore, the fellow in the video admitted he’s an antichrist. Yet because he referred to a rather large Christian website that I cited in my article, then he felt compelled to tell the owners of that site to keep doing what they are doing, teaching Christ is God. And why would he say that since he hates the God of the Bible, and he stated he believes the Bible is untrue? Because his thought is really you (other website) leave us alone, and I’ll leave you alone. Let us all believe what we want. Don’t tell me what I should believe. When the fact is neither I nor the fellow owning the Christian site would tell this guy to believe anything. We just share ideas, that’s all.
The fellow in the video misrepresented one of my articles, and it’s possible those commenters bought into his lies when misrepresenting it. But I don’t think accepting his lies is what caused their responses. I believe the ideas I write about in this article caused their responses. And notice how some praised the one in the video who is an admitted antichrist. That’s what really made me think of what it must have been like for Satan, and might still be like for Satan. (He’s the most loving fellow). Really? Check out his demeanor. I don’t see that as loving.
*Caution: The guy who is in the video admits he’s an antichrist. So if it bothers you to view an antichrist rant for an hour then just note the comments from his followers. I’ll post the article that set him off. And below that I post his video.
The message Christ gave at Matthew 24:36 thru Matthew 25:30 was to convey two ideas. And those two points were the only reason he told those stories. Christ was explaining that his disciples will not know the time of his return. He even said they will not expect it when it happens. That idea demolishes the false concept that Christ gave a sign in this monologue to show his followers when his return would be eminent, e.g. a sign of the last days. No such sign exists. *1 And more importantly, his second message was that a favorable consequence will come to disciples that remain faithful to him, contrasting that to the unfavorable consequence coming to unfaithful disciples. Two ideas: 1. You won’t know when I (Christ) will return, 2. and if you are not faithful you won’t receive the reward I promised you.
Christ merely used different vocations to illustrate those two points. The points of his stories were not tied to the vocation of the subjects in those stories. In his faithful and discreet slave story Christ merely used the vocation of elders in Christian congregations. The fact that he used men appointed by him that are feeding his sheep is irrelevant to the points he was making.
How do I know? For two reasons. First, because every person in those illustrations who receives a favorable reward is part of Christ’s anointed church. And Christ said he is their only teacher, men are not their teachers or leaders. Therefore Christians are not to follow men. And the second reason I’m sure of this is because Christ set that story right in the middle of other stories telling these same two messages.
When you read about the faithful slave who could become an evil slave, and what happens to him if he becomes evil, then it’s clear the message is the same. Also, note in that story the slave didn’t know when his master would return. He even thought the master was delaying. Which is the exact message in all those other stories. That story means nothing more than the two men in the field, the two women at the grinding mill, the home owner that was robbed, the 10 virgins, the 3 servants. All have the same themes. Look those scriptures up; or you can find those here: http://debatescripture.org/index.php/2020/01/22/why-you-are-not-a-real-christian-according-to-jehovahs-witnessess/
*1 Christ didn’t give a sign of any “last days.” But he did give a sign of his actual return. That sign will be seen in heaven (the sky).
There is a book entitled I Was a Watchtower Slave written by an ex-WT zone overseer back in the 40s or 50s. The guy that wrote it said he was working at Bethel in Germany when he was just 19 or 20 years old. He claims in Germany, while he was at Bethel, WT started taking over churches. If I remember correctly he said they did this around 1920 in Germany. He believed they tried it in Germany before the USA to see if it would be successful. This is how he claims they took control of churches:
According to this man’s claim they sent German Bethel members out to German churches subscribing to Watchtower publications. These Bethel reps then reported what was going on inside congregations using Watchtower publications. If those German congregations using the WT literature were not in step with WT teachings, then those Bethel members sent into those congregations would count them as apostate, and attempt to lead members out of those churches to follow them. He wrote when he was about 20 years old he went into a German congregation, told everyone there that he was from Watchtower, and that everyone with Watchtower must stand up and leave that church right then with him. He led a bunch out and declared those left as apostates, terminating that church’s relationship with the Watchtower organization.
Later this fellow came to the USA as a pioneer, zone overseer, and eventual Bethel worker. He said WT in the USA essentially did the same thing it did in Germany but used more kid gloves. What WT did in the USA is send its appointed company servants from Bethel into congregations, gave them authority over elders, and then removed elders from any assignments they had if they didn’t agree fully with WT policy . Things like turning in field service reports to WT headquarters. The author compared Americans then who were in churches using Watchtower publications to cowboys, meaning they were more independent in their thinking than compliant Germans associated with WT back then. So he said in America the men sent in to churches were older than those in Germany, and their tactics were not as harsh. He believed WT didn’t think the strong tactics used in Germany would have worked here in the USA. But he also said the tactics WT used in the USA were very effective, claiming all the elders that were stripped of their work assignments eventually left the org WT was building. Thereby leaving Watchtower with complete control in churches using its literature.
That’s how this author claimed WT took control of churches, in Germany and the USA…back in the 1920s and early 1930s. Prior to Watchtower taking over these churches they were independent organizations merely affiliated with the magazine company. Another interesting point this guy brought out was the spying done inside Bethel in Germany, and in the USA. He was invited to Bethel USA by Rutherford. But he said he didn’t want to work there. When he was there he said people working close to him were the type to turn you in for any supposed infraction or contrary belief. He said it was the same when he worked Bethel Germany.
So many ex-JWs still believe Christ is not God after they leave Watchtower. The larger websites run by ex-JWs teaching that, which I know about are:
Beroean Pickets YouTube with over 13,000 subscribers, most of those appearing to buy into Eric Wilson’s teachings. Eric denies Christ is God. And beroeans.net is also run by Eric and other ex-JWs who deny Christ is God.
JWSurvey, run by ex-JWs who not only deny Christ’s deity but are also atheists; and of course Lloyd Evans YouTube channel, John Cedars YouTube. Lloyd is the ex-JW who started JWSurvey. Some of his followers on YouTube still believe in God. However, I believe many do not since Lloyd teaches believing in God is a form of ignorance mankind engages in because he is afraid of death. Lloyd’s YouTube channel has over 79,000 subscribers. I suspect many of his subscribers are atheists like Lloyd.
I wrote in to Ex JW Critical Thinker, on YouTube, and asked if any of the administrators there were anointed or contacted by God. I received no response. They have 29,000 followers.
Then there is Kim and Mikey with over 30,000 subscribers. I only see them knock Watchtower. I never saw them teach about God, that is unless it was for the purpose of knocking Watchtower.
And what about JW Facts? Is that guy an atheist? Who knows. But if he remained Christian, don’t you think some people down here on earth would know that, considering the popularity of his site and how long it’s been around?
Telltale Ex JW on YouTube is an ex-Jehovah’s Witness who is now an atheist. He has 238,000 subscribers. What does he do? Knock Watchtower and other Bible teachers. Most sites created by ex-Jws exist to disparage Watchtower, and not to preach Christ or any other gospel.
Another factor which probably contributes to the existence of these sites is money, and fame by gathering a following. All those sites are monetized, which means the owners get paid by having you view their content; and some of the sites also have links where you can donate your money to them. While YouTube sites are free; sites like this one cost almost nothing; and it also costs very little to produce videos.
However, their pretense to exist is to help the poor JW people who have been misled by Watchtower or people who, these sites claim, have been severely mentally damaged by WT’s policies. And they also claim to exist to warn others about Watchtower. Almost none of them claim to exist to help other people know God. And the fact they don’t exist to help others know God is proven by their content.
Eric’s Beroean Pickets YouTube and beroeans.net being exceptions to these other websites’ professed purpose for existence. Eric is in it to teach Bible scriptures. Yet Eric is also in it for the money. He asks for donations and monetizes his sites.
Though teaching scripture Eric still doesn’t know who Christ is, nor does he believe any humans go to heaven. And he has some other strange beliefs that appear only he made up, like God will not judge anyone of eternal damnation until he brings every sinner to a perfect state like Adam and Eve were in without sin. Eric teaches that idea as he claims there has to be a level playing field before God makes such judgments. Yet that idea is clearly contradicted by Christ’s own words, which Eric knows-see Matthew 25:31-46.
So how do we find the TRUTH about God? A brief answer is God has to give you his truth. So you don’t find God’s truth, it finds you. It doesn’t come from some other person teaching it to you, or YOU looking up what someone else thinks about it. That is one of the fallacies about Eric’s way of teaching, for it misleads those thousands who follow him. He bases most of his teachings on research, such as researching the correct definition of an ancient Greek or Hebrew word that is used in a particular scripture. That’s not how Christ teaches his truth to his church members today. And that’s not how Christ taught his church when he was on earth.
But how dangerous is religious propaganda or atheism? And exactly how does Christ reach us so that we don’t follow men, but only him? Religious propaganda surely has contributed to atheism, as surely as clouds contribute to rain. That fact is clearly seen by what I’ve shared above. Watchtower engages in religious propaganda. Its teachings are full of it. And most of the owners of the sites above held positions of authority within the Watchtower organization. They were included among its teachers. They were what other denominations would call pastors. And some of these worked at Watchtower’s worldwide headquarters. Yet almost all of them became atheists after their experience inside the Jehovah’s Witnesses organization. I believe the only ones named above that didn’t become atheists were Eric Wilson and his bunch.
Yet despite all this going on we can have confidence that everything is happening according to God’s plan. Humanity is being sifted. Recently I did find an ex-JW YouTube site that is run by two ex-JWs who teach scriptures and understand the simplest truth that I believe all heavenly bound Christians know, which is Christ is God. The site is Jude 3 & Laura 2 – YouTube
It appears Eric Wilson, of Beroean Pickets YouTube, has come to the realization that some humans will be judged worthy of eternal damnation because of what they did or failed to do in this world, a 180 degree turnabout from his previous teaching about the necessity of a level playing field (e.g. the necessity of perfection for all humans before that judgment is made by Christ). Good for Eric. See his recent video here: https://youtu.be/D6t04qhfEPA
Born again does not mean being acceptable to Christ as a Christian. The term Christian was first used to mean any person who follows Christ. Certainly those in the New World, on earth, will follow Christ. When Christ spoke about born again he used a metaphor, the wind. And Christ said that people don’t know where the wind comes from or where it goes. He said that because the wind is invisible. He used that metaphor because he was implying that born again people will have another type of body that can go where humans cannot, into the invisible dimensions he called heaven. And people on earth would not see where they went.
Paul said baptism in Holy Spirit was only a token (sign), like a partial payment, of what was to come-see 2 Corinthians 1: 21,22 and Ephesians 4:30. Being born again with a body that can travel to the dimensions of heaven is what Paul meant by what was to come, in “the day of redemption.” Being baptized in Holy Spirit means a person is chosen by God. But being born again means those people actually receive those special bodies-per Christ’s words to Nicodemus.
Another thing I think JWs get wrong is saying (what they call) spiritual bodies are not material in nature. How would they know that? Scriptures don’t claim it. Scriptures state those bodies have substance. Those bodies might be made of elements mankind is not aware of. There is no way to tell what they are made of this side of heaven.
John chapter 3 :
3Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.a”
4“How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time to be born?”
5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. 7Do not be amazed that I said, ‘Youb must be born again.’ 8The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
10“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and you do not understand these things? 11Truly, truly, I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, and yet you people do not accept our testimony.
12If I have told you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things?
My Comment on John Cedars’ YouTube Video Posted 1/16/2021
Having previously been a regular commenter on Lloyd Evans'(aka John Cedars) site JW Survey for a number of years; a JW for about 40 years; and as a current Christian ex-JW, I can answer the caller’s question directly, without interpretations through a third party. When Lloyd started his answer he came closest to what the real answer is. When he said ex-JWs who are still Christian believe in God because they don’t associate God with Watchtower. But here is where he went wrong. Most real Christians who know anything about what Christ really taught know Christians don’t follow religion. Real Christians only follow Christ. We know Christ told us to do that. And Christ said, weeds and wheat (Christians) will grow together, and apostles wrote quite a bit about Christian apostasy. Lloyd was also correct about people having a mind that wants to know God. But that applies to all people, not just Christians. And it’s a provable fact. Because what you call religion has dominated the world since the beginning. Wait until you’re dying, and you’ll recognize that, if you don’t already.
Along with the human mind existing with its desire to know God the main reason why Christians accept what you call religion, which is not what I call it, I call it God, is because of the evidence. Which is exactly what atheists claim to have. While actually atheists have zero evidence to support their positions. However, testimonials provided by Christians today and in historical records include eyewitness evidence to the existence of godly miracles, including personal contacts by God. Through such testimonials evidence that God exists is present today.
While atheists can provide nothing but conjecture to support their belief. They attempt to point to science. Yet science cannot explain their position, as science teaches energy cannot be created or destroyed. (See www.thoughtco.com/energy-definition-and-examples-2698976 ). Therefore, science has no answer, zip, zero, none for how all this energy got here in the first place.
The part about cognitive dissonance that Lloyd brought up I see as a bunch of poppycock. Most, and maybe all, JWs that left Watchtower and remained Christian did not go through some sort of weak protection mechanism called cognitive dissonance. While some ex-JWs on sites like this (John Cedars YouTube channel) cry about that, I doubt most of those ever experienced cognitive dissonance because of Watchtower either. I know I never have, and Lloyd does not come across as he ever has; although I cannot attest to any mental condition he’s experienced. As for myself, it was just a belief I held for a number of years that WT was telling the truth about many things, that changed when I discovered it wasn’t. There was no cognitive dissonance attached to either side of that belief, where I attempted to hold onto or justify my previous belief in WT’s teachings. I look at it no differently than I access other ideas told me by other people that prove to be untrue. I suspect most ex-JWs do also.
For those wishing to know more about many Bible doctrines Watchtower got wrong you are welcome to visit my site debatescripture.org . So the shortest answer to the caller’s question is we ex-JW Christians follow God because we follow evidence. Not just biblical evidence, God still contacts people today, and their testimonials are part of that evidence. The fact that you don’t believe us is something God allows for now. Non-belief is prophetic (2Peter chapter 3). But your non-belief has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that evidence exists. Here is a question I think you should consider. Why would God prove his existence to people who don’t want to follow him?