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What Did Jesus Mean by Born Again?

Born again does not mean being acceptable to Christ as a Christian. The term Christian was first used to mean any person who follows Christ. Certainly those in the New World, on earth, will follow Christ. When Christ spoke about born again he used a metaphor, the wind. And Christ said that people don’t know where the wind comes from or where it goes. He said that because the wind is invisible. He used that metaphor because he was implying that born again people will have another type of body that can go where humans cannot, into the invisible dimensions he called heaven. And people on earth would not see where they went.

Paul said baptism in Holy Spirit was only a token (sign), like a partial payment, of what was to come-see 2 Corinthians 1: 21,22 and Ephesians 4:30. Being born again with a body that can travel to the dimensions of heaven is what Paul meant by what was to come, in “the day of redemption.” Being baptized in Holy Spirit means a person is chosen by God. But being born again means those people actually receive those special bodies-per Christ’s words to Nicodemus.

Another thing I think JWs get wrong is saying (what they call) spiritual bodies are not material in nature. How would they know that? Scriptures don’t claim it. Scriptures state those bodies have substance. Those bodies might be made of elements mankind is not aware of. There is no way to tell what they are made of this side of heaven.

Christ’s Words

John chapter 3 :

3Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.a

4“How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time to be born?”

5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. 7Do not be amazed that I said, ‘Youb must be born again.’ 8The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

9“How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

10“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and you do not understand these things? 11Truly, truly, I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, and yet you people do not accept our testimony.

12If I have told you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things?

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Why Do Some People Who Are Hurt by Cults Remain Religious?

My Comment on John Cedars’ YouTube Video Posted 1/16/2021

Having previously been a regular commenter on Lloyd Evans'(aka John Cedars) site JW Survey for a number of years; a JW for about 40 years; and as a current Christian ex-JW, I can answer the caller’s question directly, without interpretations through a third party. When Lloyd started his answer he came closest to what the real answer is. When he said ex-JWs who are still Christian believe in God because they don’t associate God with Watchtower. But here is where he went wrong. Most real Christians who know anything about what Christ really taught know Christians don’t follow religion. Real Christians only follow Christ. We know Christ told us to do that. And Christ said, weeds and wheat (Christians) will grow together, and apostles wrote quite a bit about Christian apostasy. Lloyd was also correct about people having a mind that wants to know God. But that applies to all people, not just Christians. And it’s a provable fact. Because what you call religion has dominated the world since the beginning. Wait until you’re dying, and you’ll recognize that, if you don’t already.

Along with the human mind existing with its desire to know God the main reason why Christians accept what you call religion, which is not what I call it, I call it God, is because of the evidence. Which is exactly what atheists claim to have. While actually atheists have zero evidence to support their positions. However, testimonials provided by Christians today and in historical records include eyewitness evidence to the existence of godly miracles, including personal contacts by God. Through such testimonials evidence that God exists is present today.

While atheists can provide nothing but conjecture to support their belief. They attempt to point to science. Yet science cannot explain their position, as science teaches energy cannot be created or destroyed. (See www.thoughtco.com/energy-definition-and-examples-2698976 ). Therefore, science has no answer, zip, zero, none for how all this energy got here in the first place.

The part about cognitive dissonance that Lloyd brought up I see as a bunch of poppycock. Most, and maybe all, JWs that left Watchtower and remained Christian did not go through some sort of weak protection mechanism called cognitive dissonance. While some ex-JWs on sites like this (John Cedars YouTube channel) cry about that, I doubt most of those ever experienced cognitive dissonance because of Watchtower either. I know I never have, and Lloyd does not come across as he ever has; although I cannot attest to any mental condition he’s experienced. As for myself, it was just a belief I held for a number of years that WT was telling the truth about many things, that changed when I discovered it wasn’t. There was no cognitive dissonance attached to either side of that belief, where I attempted to hold onto or justify my previous belief in WT’s teachings. I look at it no differently than I access other ideas told me by other people that prove to be untrue. I suspect most ex-JWs do also.

For those wishing to know more about many Bible doctrines Watchtower got wrong you are welcome to visit my site debatescripture.org . So the shortest answer to the caller’s question is we ex-JW Christians follow God because we follow evidence. Not just biblical evidence, God still contacts people today, and their testimonials are part of that evidence. The fact that you don’t believe us is something God allows for now. Non-belief is prophetic (2Peter chapter 3). But your non-belief has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that evidence exists. Here is a question I think you should consider. Why would God prove his existence to people who don’t want to follow him?

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Elders Going Beyond WT Disciplinary Guidelines

Some of the elders are opinionated and go beyond WT guideline. When I was a new Witness a young elder started commending me on my fine service and zeal, but then he said, “but your wife doesn’t comment at the Watchtower.” Then I answered, “I know, and I spoke to her about it.” His reply was, “cut her allowance.” The very next Watchtower study he stopped calling on me. He was the WT conductor. And whenever the service overseer had a part on the stage he would never call on me either. These two did that as long as I stayed in that congregation, about a year longer. I was even appointed MS there, but that didn’t stop the practice from these two elders.

A sister told me this story, but I believe her. I used to work with her, and we were in the same congregation. She said that on a shepherding call that she and her husband received because her husband was physically violent towards her, then the presiding overseer, COBE, asked her, “but did you deserve it?” This was a different congregation than the one I was writing about in that first paragraph. This COBE was also the WT study conductor. And after he had called on me freely, during the WT study for several years, he abruptly stopped. I think because I was in a university. I reported him and several other elders in to the WT Society. I had seen that behavior in three congregations, in three separate counties. Also others reported to me it had happened to them, including an elder and his son in law in the same area. So I reported everyone I knew had engaged in the practice, from the three congregations, and gave the names of a couple elders who told me they were aware of it.

But every elder I confronted, that was guilty, lied about it. However, one elder that I questioned to see what he knew, that I didn’t accuse of participating, said these exact words, “That’s what we used to do, but we don’t do it anymore.” Well he was lying there also, because I know he was aware it was going on then. In that congregation his brother in law was one of the guilty parties. And while I was a victim of the practice I gave a talk on the school. This guy who claimed he didn’t know anything about the practice going on, at that time, came and sat right up front, in the middle of the stage, right in front of me. And he came up there just for my talk. Leaving his family seated half way back in the hall, walking back to his seat after my talk. While up front he started making these facial expressions like he’s a tough guy, like I’ll drag you off the stage if you say anything about this now. You see I had already informed 4 new elders sent into the congregation from a neighboring one. And I had spoken to the guilty elders to see if they wanted to admit their behavior and apologize , and we could get that behind us.

So these innocent elders who had been sent over knew about it, his brother in law and other guilty elders there knew about it, but he didn’t? That was a lie. And he didn’t want me going to the circuit overseer. Which he verbalized. Thing is, I didn’t care what he wanted. The circuit overseer was told, and the CO believed me. So did 4 other elders sent into that congregation.

But another point I’d like to reiterate is every guilty elder I confronted lied about it. And I saw the practice going on in three separate CA counties, LA, Orange, San Bernardino. The congregations were between 60-100 miles apart. Now in each incident I saw this behavior taking place the elders were even too chicken sh** to talk to the persons they were zeroing in on about any type of misconduct. And why would that be? Because their reasons were so petty. As stated above the first time it happened to me is because my wife didn’t comment at the WT, even though she was active and commented at the book study regularly.

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Why Won’t Jehovah’s Witnesses Listen to You?

Winston in one of his videos on YouTube’s channel Watchtower Examination stated he believes governing body member Anthony Morris calculated at least 6,000,000 out of the over 8,000,000 Witnesses would not care and still follow him for making an incorrect statement, in an address Anthony Morris gave on the Watchtower TV channel. I don’t think Mr. Morris even calculated a number. Because he already knew the number is so much greater than what Winston said. You see Winston must not fully realize why Jehovah’s Witnesses will not listen to him; or why they will follow Watchtower, even if WT gives wrong information (even about the Bible), and he, Winston, gives them correct information (even about the Bible).

I wrote him:

As a used to be JW, active for over 40 years, I can assure you (Winston) that a lot more than 6,000,000 of the over 8,000,000 will not care what Tony Morris says, even if Tony Morris says things that are incorrect. The real figure of those who don’t care is likely more than 99% of Witnesses. You see almost every Witness I knew over the 40 years of attending meetings in 6 congregations would accept practically anything the GB would put out.

And the ideas individual (JW) members wouldn’t accept, like the GB’s teaching not to engage in higher education, they would, if at all possible, keep to themselves. That is they might only disclose those things to people who were extremely close, those who they believed would not pass that information to anyone else.

Jehovah’s Witnesses are afraid of being turned in for sinning by another JW. Turned in to who? To their congregational elders who the Watchtower obligates to investigate a sin. And not believing the Governing Body to a JW is not following God (sinning). And Jehovah’s Witnesses are afraid of getting kicked out of their organization. To a JW getting kicked out is one of the worst things that could happen to them.

Plus before almost every JW is baptized they are conditioned to accept being a JW is the only way to serve God. So these two things are what gives WT and its leaders their power. First and foremost is the Witness belief becoming a JW is the ONLY way to serve God, and second the Witness fear that way to serve God might be removed by their own action, even if that action is denying any teaching from the governing body.

Notice this recent reply that was directed to me on another site. Pay close attention to the “emphatic” statement the CO (standing for circuit overseer) made:

Highlighted reply Unassigned Vlog 11 hours ago. From the YouTube site Unassigned Vlog:

Yep we had a WT slid across to us in an elders meeting that said the same thing, accept the BS or get the DF. After raising a couple simple questions that poke holes in the FDS being the GB, the CO said, “You will never accept it.” I replied, “Because it isn’t true.” He said emphatically, “It doesn’t matter if its true.” This last statement goes against my very core in becoming a JW. (John 4:23. 24)

END OF THE COMMENTER’S REPLY

MY THOUGHTS ON THE COMMENT:

That circuit overseer said, “IT DOESN’T MATTER IF IT’S TRUE.” If What’s true? If the GB is what Christ was describing in his “faithful and discreet slave” parable. And the circuit overseer’s statement has been proven true. Watchtower has defined who the FDS is several different ways already. And did it lose followers when changing their opinion? No! They didn’t because of those two reasons I list above. All JWs are conditioned to believe those two things. The only ones that don’t are people who lied and said they did to please parents who expected them to get baptized as a JW. Either they told that lie when they were baptized, or like me they came to believe the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Jehovah’s Witness organization are not what they claim to be. Oh, there is another group also, those that decide not to serve God.

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Contacted by God

I’ve heard of supernatural experiences from friends before. I always discounted those, by taking my friends’ words with a grain of salt. I imagined there might be another explanation for what they saw that differed from their assessment of the facts they told me. Because that’s how I was I believe most people who have never seen something that is undeniably supernatural will take the same position I used to take.

I have verbally told parts of this story to others. But I never wrote it down to post before today. And I never told the whole story, or even as much of it as I write now. There’s just too much to tell. How do you describe every detail of an experience? You just don’t. So why do I post my experience now? Because a commenter on another website asked to hear about it. So I decided to tell her and post that comment here also.

In writing to me on that other site she said:

Now, I can look back to when I was 11 and I spoke to Jesus from my heart, and I heard him answer me. I also felt a tingling rush and much love sweep over me. I have always kept that treasured in my heart and only just started sharing it very recently. (I’m 60 now.) ….
It was almost immediately after that experience when I was 11, that JWs began studying with my family. It was a good thing for me. It may have saved my life, even. So I have no regrets about becoming JW. Do you experience Spirit this way? I would love to hear more about your own experiences.

I responded to her request with this:

My first wife died on July 26, 2009, one day before my birthday. She suffered a stroke and died while a patient in a hospital. She was the nicest person I have ever known, not because she was my wife, but factually she was the nicest. She was a lot nicer than me.

About five years before she died I had a dream. It was different than other dreams of mine, because it’s the only one I ever let affect a decision of mine. Even though reading this article that decision will seem insignificant to you, to me, at the time, it wasn’t. Even though the decision was just to choose what interior color our new house would be painted. It meant something to me. More than just a wall color.

When I had the dream I didn’t believe God contacted people in our day. I believed what Watchtower taught us, that he doesn’t. Yet this dream scared me; I didn’t want it to come true. And I thought it just might be different from other nightmares and really happen (even though at that time I didn’t think such things happened). But I thought I might be able to stop it from happening if I changed something in my life that I foresaw in that dream. It was a just in case thought you know. Because me, I didn’t believe in real premonitions. Not in our day.

Our History

We were married for 32 years when she died. Other than going to restaurants and Jehovah’s Witness conventions, or to vacation spots in San Diego, our favorite hobby was buying newly constructed houses and fixing them up. But about ten years before her death we lost our money due to our failing business. And so we moved from a very affluent part of CA to a part that is primarily a middle class area in CA. It is about 100 miles away from South Orange County, and our old neighborhood in Laguna Niguel.

We kept the business going for a couple years from there but then shut it down. I was already 49 years old. She was 48. Since we’d essentially lost everything of material value I needed another source of income. My wife had only worked part time in our own business since we married. So after closing the business neither of us had a source of income. I decided to become an attorney or public school music teacher. I eventually chose teacher because I assumed it would cost less than becoming an attorney. I knew I would be well into my 50s when I finished college to enter into either profession.

So I entered a junior college. And I got a job as a security guard. When I applied for it I asked the company’s owner if I could do my homework on the job, and he said yes. I worked nights and weekends and went to school during the day. Because the job didn’t pay much my wife got a job at K-Mart. Together we made enough to get by. At the time we were both faithful Jehovah’s Witnesses. My wife remained one until she died. I still believed in Watchtower then too. But I began to view it differently several years later. I guess it started about three years after her death.

The First Contact


But about five years before she died I had a dream. The dream was of me in a house that we would have built some time later, a few years or so later. I know she lived in the home we had built for three years before she died. The dream started with me standing next to a bed, in a bedroom, inside a house I had never been in. The bed was a high one, and the framing on it with its headboard was dark brown wood. (For years as we’d furnish new homes my wife and I always picked out more modern looking furniture, and we always chose light woods like white ash). But this wood was very dark, and the style was not modern. I looked at the room and there was sunlight coming through its two windows. There was a tall armoire against the wall opposite the bed, and it was made of dark brown wood also. I walked out of the bedroom which opened to an alcove that gave way to a living room on the right a dining room on the left. Both those rooms were separated by a walkway leading to a kitchen.

But instead of going directly to the kitchen I went over to a wall on the far side of the living room, and I began to stare up at something on that wall. The only thing I could never remember about this dream is what I was staring up at. But as I was a color superimposed itself on the wall, but just around the object I was staring at. The color was a very light grey with just a hint of bluish green in it.

And that’s what caused me to let this dream affect a decision I made in real life. You see, when we finally had a house built we chose the interior color that we saw inside the model home of our contractor. But then later my wife said, “let’s change the color.” I said no. You see I thought she might pick that light grey that I saw in the dream. Even though in the dream the color only appeared around the object I was gazing at, I assumed it might indicate the interior color of the house in that dream. And I didn’t want it to come true. I thought if I could change that I could change the dream’s outcome, if it proved to be a premonition.

As I walked through the living room/dining room area I noticed both those rooms were only partially furnished, and I consciously thought to myself, “There isn’t a lot of furniture in these two rooms.” (Remember my wife and I used to buy new houses and decorate them-so this lack of furniture got my attention; because in the dream I was living in this house). I then walked into the kitchen. The kitchen and another eating area were together as one big room. Half the room was a large kitchen, and half was another large eating area, as large as the formal dining room. This eating area was on the left, the kitchen on the right. But the room itself was just one big room. So I walked past the table in that eating area, walked over to the window, and looked out at the view. I could see most of the desert valley from there.

One of my sons was either washing his dish or preparing a meal on the kitchen island, and he said, “Hi daddy.” I answered back, “Hi Scott.” Then I looked down a hallway that exited the kitchen, on the opposite side from where I’d entered it. As I looked down that dark hallway the purpose of the dream became clear. For the first time an extremely strong emotion overwhelmed me. It was sadness as I thought, “Some of our children live in the bedrooms down that hallway, but my wife is not with us.” And I thought, “None of us are with her. And she’s not coming back.”

The next thing I knew I was outside in the yard, right outside the bedroom that I was in when the dream started. It was our bedroom. I reached down and turned on the water to an irrigation drip line. I looked down at the view of the whole valley. I cut a couple weeds with a hoe as I looked at the front yard. And the dream was over.

Why do I believe the dream is significant?

Before we ever had our house built I felt it was a strange dream. At that time I didn’t believe God contacts people today. After we moved in our new home I saw it was the home in that dream. I told my family I had a dream I was living in this house years before it was built. I told that to my mother, and also I told her my wife wasn’t with us. The layout and interior of our new home matched that of the dream home exactly. And it’s design and floorplan is extremely unique. My wife and I used to run through every model and construction site in our old neighborhood in South Orange County, both of track and custom homes. But we never saw a home’s interior that looked anything like this one.

And once my wife died our house was furnished just like the house in that dream. I picked our bed. But she picked that armoire and brought it home without me seeing it before she brought it home. Both objects were exactly like in the dream, and we placed both in our bedroom in the same places. We never owned an armoire before that. About a month before she died we took almost all the furniture out of the dining room. You see we had furniture on lay away for the living room. And we had the dining room furnished really nicely. But the wood in the dining room would have been a shade or two darker than the living room furniture we were going to receive. So I told her, “Why don’t we move that into the kitchen area, and then put new furniture on lay away for the dining room, to better match the wood colors. ” That we did. That left both rooms scarcely furnished one month before she died. And just a month after she died both were fully furnished.

So many things I had no control over matched exactly, that water spigot outside the wall of our bedroom, in the exact same location; the view was the same also; the timing, because our house only had sparse furnishings in both living and dining rooms for just a month before she died. That’s the only time they were furnished like that. A week or two after she died my sister went to K-Mart where my wife worked. My sister brought sympathy cards saying a lot of nice things about her. K Mart employees also sent my family over two hundred dollars, and they sent the statue of an angel that was light grey with a hint of blue-green, the exact color I saw superimposed on part of the living room wall in that dream. I wasn’t thinking about that then, but when my sister gave me the statue I put it on a table, up against that wall I stared at when I saw that color superimposing itself on that part of the wall. And today that angel sits atop a piece of furniture, in the spot I was looking up at in the dream.

She Dies

She had high blood pressure as long as I’d known her. But she was on medication for it. However, she developed a hoarseness because of one medication, so her doctor prescribed a new one. It didn’t work. My wife didn’t communicate that to me, and I didn’t find out until at least a year later. All that time her pressure was dangerously high (over 200).

I ended up taking her to doctors with the final result being her admission into a hospital. I remember when we decided she would go in, she told me, “I’m afraid.” And I said, “What are you afraid of?” She said, “I don’t want to die.” Then I answered, “You’re not going to die.” But then, for the first time I did tell her she wasn’t with me in that dream I had, and why I didn’t want to change the interior color of our home. Still I didn’t believe it was going to happen, even though almost everything else I had seen in the dream had already come true. Everything except the fact that she was gone. And that color superimposing itself on the living room wall.

She was in the hospital for two days. They brought her blood pressure down upon admission. The second day she had a stroke that killed her. After she died I knew the dream couldn’t have been coincidental. There were just too many details in it that came true. And not one detail in it failed to come true. Even that statue showing up that I randomly placed against the same wall that its color superimposed itself on in that dream. To me, logically, the amount of details that I saw come true were beyond chance. I couldn’t reconcile that it was coincidental.

That’s when I knew I was contacted by someone that lives in the future, not just could see the future but lives there. To me that could be the only answer, because how else could he have told me such minute details about my life, including almost the exact day of my wife’s death, five years or more before it happened? I know I could not foresee the future. It was shown to me by someone else.

Later I reasoned out why this first dream was shown to me. It’s because I’m a skeptic. After my wife died I asked God to show her to me in my dreams. And being a skeptic, if I didn’t have proof that he did that, I would have believed I just had those dreams all on my own, even though I asked for them in prayer. So God showed me details leading to her death, and after the final dream he showed me a vision of something representing himself, while I was a wake. And the object that I saw looked as solid as anything else I’d ever seen. But it could float and go through walls.

More Dreams/ One Vision While Awake


In the days after she died, before I went to sleep, I’d pray to God to see her in a dream. About five times I did that, and it happened four times. The first time she and I were in what looked like a park, and there were other people enjoying themselves in it. The third time we were in a large parking lot that was empty with a couple people going into a large building with no name. We talked. I wanted to know what it was like being dead, because I had no recollection of me dying. So I asked her saying, “But you were dead?” Then she just looked puzzled, as if she couldn’t say anything about the experience.

Then we walked into that large building. There was a smaller room in the front, with a lady behind an ice cream counter. We told her what we wanted. She gave it to us. But we were not charged. It was free. And we seemed to know it would be free. We both knew we were in the New World that scriptures speak of. And I knew she had come back to life. But there was no pain attached to the thought of her death anymore. Not like there still is. No pain at all. In the dream I just thought of it as an experience, her death. In those dreams I had after her death, up to this point, the over riding emotional feeling I had was contentment. There was nothing to worry about there. And there was no pain when thinking about bad things from the past.


I’ll describe the last dream now. The last dream was different than these others. All the other dreams began with me on the earth, even though I was in the New World. In the last dream I was standing up in the air, while I was floating down to earth. I wasn’t very high off the ground. I wasn’t moving my legs at all, but my whole body was floating down at an angle, and moving fairly quickly. I was coming down into that park that I mentioned above, and my wife was standing up on the ground looking at me approach her. As I looked down at her I experienced fear. I was thinking this I thought to myself as I looked at her, “You are dead, I’m not suppose to talk to dead people.” So I got scared and yelled Jehovah really loud. As soon as I did I was pulled backwards, back up towards the sky at the same angle I was descending in. I never reached the ground before I was pulled back. And I was jerked really fast. Right after I was snatched back I woke.

As soon as I woke I saw an object hovering over my chest. And as soon as I saw it, it moved from over me and hovered in the air about 7 feet from me. As it did I thought, “You are the one that’s been putting those dreams in my mind.” It seemed to hover there so that I would contemplate that thought. It stayed there about ten seconds as I looked at it and had that thought. It seemed to be reading my mind, knowing what I was thinking. In that way I believe it was delivering its final message. The message of YES.

It looked kind of like a thick banner made of wool about 4 feet wide and 3 feet tall made to hang on a wall, that my wife owned. It was the same size and color of that banner, when the length of the wall banner is doubled over to hang on a curtain rod. My wife used to sometimes cover herself with it when she’d lay down. Her mom had given her this piece from New York City. It has Jehovah’s name written all over it many times, with many additional names attached to Jehovah in Hebrew along with their English translations, like Jehovah Nissi-God my Banner; Jehovah Shammah-God Is Present; Jehovah Raphe-God Heals. Those are just some of the names, there are many more. But every name starts with Jehovah.

This object that I saw looked just as solid as everything else in the room. It looked like that wall banner, but it didn’t have any writing on it. It sort of looked like a thick curtain with slight pleats, smooth rolling ones, no creases. And parts of it glowed a reddish orange glow. But the light coming from it didn’t light the room. After about ten seconds of what seemed to be a telepathic reading of my mind it vanished up through the ceiling. While it hovered I just kept thinking, you are the one that gave me those dreams. When it moved it did so really fast, split second fast.

What does it mean? Why did it happen?

At first I didn’t know. I wondered, why would God contact me? Who am I for him to contact? I knew that part of the reason for the contact was to comfort me, to let me know everything will eventually be alright. But in time I knew that wasn’t the main reason. The main reason is that God was telling me that I’m his chosen son. And because I am his chosen son everything will be alright because he will make it that way, for me. And so he showed me coming down from heaven and pulled me back up when I got scared and called him.

“….but you received the Spirit of sonship, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ—if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him…” Romans 8:15-17

“‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; Acts 2:17

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Watchtower Teaches It Can Misinterpret Scripture and Remain Acceptable to God But No One Else Can. Why? Because It Says They Are God’s Only Spokesman

The Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses directs elders to disfellowship every baptized Jehovah’s Witness who does not believe teachings of the Watchtower Society, whether those teachings are right or wrong. Even if members believe some of Watchtower’s teaching they will still get disfellowshipped if elders discover they do not believe other ideas taught by Watchtower. Disfellowshipped for a Jehovah’s Witness means Watchtower will order all other Jehovah’s Witnesses to stop having any association with him, not even saying hello. The only exclusion to this Watchtower rule applies to household family members. Circuit overseers were instructed to give that direction to elders as far back as 1980, in a letter given them through Watchtower headquarters. This in spite of the fact Watchtower frequently admits it has misinterpreted the Bible, not once, not twice, but many times.

And Watchtower teaches that all other Christian teachers and Christians are not acceptable to Christ because they teach and believe wrong ideas about what the scriptures say. Watchtower has a double standard. It can teach wrong Bible doctrines, but when any of its baptized members do not accept those wrong beliefs WT tells elders to disfellowship them. WT claims only it can misinterpret scriptures and still be acceptable to God, but no one else can. They are hypocrites. “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces (those you kick out the church, and elders you tell to kick them out). You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to,” Matthew 23:13.

Any religion that teaches the end is imminent is working against Christ’s purpose. That includes every Adventist movement. Seventh Day Adventists, and Jehovah’s Witnesses are included. See: http://debatescripture.org/index.php/suggested-topics-the-last-days/ also see http://debatescripture.org/index.php/2020/02/02/you-are-not-alone/

For More Info on This See

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Governing Body Member of Jehovah’s Witnesses Accuses More Than Half Their Single Male Members of Being Unfit Marriage Candidates

Anthony Morris III told all JW sisters not to marry any baptized JW brother who is already 21 years old that is not appointed by Watchtower, to the position of ministerial servant. Mr. Morris gave that direction at a Zone talk to the whole United States around 2012. Mr. A. Morris started his speech by saying some in the audience will believe he will be expressing his own opinions during the talk. But he said, that is not so, “I have it right here in writing. ” And he held up his talk papers while making that statement, implying the ideas he would present come from the administrators over his whole organization (its governing body).

Now to advise all JW sisters not to marry certain types of brothers Mr. Morris would have to consider those brothers non-exemplary baptized Christians. Biblically the idea is ridiculous. And it’s ridiculous because more than half of the male JWs 21 years of age and older are not appointed servants by WT. In essence Tony Morris was claiming the greater number of baptized male JWs are not exemplary Christians. Also see Why You Are Not a Real Christian According to Jehovah’s Witnesses:

Why You Are Not a Real Christian According to Jehovah’s Witnesses

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One Hope or Two?

Because I’ve covered most of the topics I desired to when I started this site it has become easier for me to cover topics that arise from comments I make on other sites, than to rack my brain in search of new topics. And so I sometimes post the exact comment here I posted as a guest on another Christian website.

I imagine most Christians believe there is just one hope for humanity, in the sense all followers of Christ have the same final destination. That’s what one commenter on another site was attempting to convince me of while he was responding to an assertion I made there. This was the part of his comment that attempted to convince me; before he started to tell me not to follow Watchtower he posted:

@Messenger Q: How many hopes are there for Christians? A: Ephesians 4:4 “one hope” Q: What hope did we have before we become a Christian? A: Ephesians 2:12,13 “separated from Christ”…”having no hope”…

This was my response to him:

What I said has nothing to with listening to Watchtower in the sense of following it. So let’s set that rhetoric aside first. If what you believe is scriptural then you should be able to accurately refute these facts I’ll lay out. I assert you cannot logically refute them. You might argue against them. But you cannot logically prove them wrong:

*1. There was one hope the apostles shared with those they taught, but not all who became Christian realized that hope. What does that mean? It means the fact they were preaching one hope, to gather the kingdom of God, has nothing to do with what happens to people who become what you or someone else might consider Christian. Also, although the apostles stressed the one hope of the heavenly calling, their scriptures spoke of others remaining on earth-see Revelation. Even Jesus spoke of this group when he spoke of those who inherit the earth-see Matthew chapter five.

*2. Those who are part of Christ’s church are chosen by God. And they are not taught God’s purposes by looking up what some original Greek or Hebrew word meant that is in scripture. Nor is it God’s Bible that is the sole revealer of his truth to them. What does that prove? It proves unless Christ or his Father send their Holy Spirit to teach an individual God’s purpose then that individual is not considered a part of the church the New Testament refers to. See Matthew 23:8-10 and John 16:13.

*3. Some are chosen by God to be what the New Testament calls a kingdom, and they are to rule upon the earth. See Revelation 5:10. What does that prove? Unless one is chosen by God to be part of that kingdom, then he/she is not part of that ruling class mentioned in scripture ruling for God over others on earth. Also see Daniel; there look up “holy ones of the supreme one,” or saints-see Daniel 7:18. 21, 22. Because Daniel wrote about the same group. So to logically prove your point you have to prove that the group Christ considers his church includes more than these ones that rule over the earth, but it also includes the group ruled over by the kingdom, if you consider those others serving God are Christians. And even if you don’t consider them with the label Christian, your teaching is still illogical. Why? Because your statement above did not center on that term, or these other terms like kingdom or church that I’ve brought up. Your assertion was there are not two hopes. And you claim those not Christian have no hope. But surely these scriptures prove there are two hopes, whether you are defining those ruled over as Christian or not. They certainly are/will be people following Christ.

* 4. Those making up that kingdom receive bodies like Christ’s that can go where Christ can go. And Christ can go into heaven. And Christ promised to take those to heaven that he considers his church. See 1Corinthians 15:52-54. See John 14:1-3. What does that prove? It proves since the group can go to heaven that will also rule over others on earth then those ruled over on earth are not a group Christ considered his church. Why? Because he told his church they will be taken to where he went. And this ruling class is not confined to this earth like some other ex-JW sites teach, e.g. Beroeans.net and Beroean Pickets YouTube. It’s clear they go to heaven with ability to come to earth. Why is it clear? Because where Christ went was back to heaven, and he told them he was coming back to take them to that place he went to (heaven).

The term Christian I imagine can define this other group-depending on what definition you give to that word; but remember Christian is a term that was used to label the early followers of Christ. And today that is still used to define people who go to Christian churches. I doubt it will be used in the new world as to live everyone must follow Christ. And they must follow him absolutely as he will require, while acknowledging who he is to them. Matthew 4:10“Away from Me, Satan! Jesus declared. “For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.’”

Ephesians 4:4 (a scripture he raised) is only referring to Christ’s church (not humanity in general), which is evident by its reference to one body which is something you left out. The hope of Christ’s church, that ruling class, differs from those ruled over. Ephesians 4:4 reads, “For there is one body and one Spirit, just as you have been called to one glorious hope for the future.” Ephesians 2:12 (a second scripture he raised) speaks to them being outside the covenant God concluded Abram. That promise to Abram’s descendants is what it is speaking to. And the scripture is saying they were living outside that promise. Here read: “In those days you were living apart from Christ. You were excluded from citizenship among the people of Israel, and you did not know the covenant promises God had made to them. You lived in this world without God and without hope.” So that hope God promised Abram that was reiterated through Bible writers was outside their reach. That promise is not a promise made to people ruled over in the new world. But Christ’s church is attached to that promise of God. See Galatians 3:29.

WT is not just correct about two hopes. WT is also correct that those ruled over in the new world are beneficiaries of that covenant Christ made with his church. Romans 8:22 “For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for  adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.” Notice how Paul made the distinction between the whole creation groaning, and “we ourselves” (the church) groaning. Obviously the creation though excluded from the covenant Christ made benefits from it. And that is exactly what WT teaches. And they are correct.

For more information on this subject read: http://debatescripture.org/index.php/2020/04/01/the-secret-of-two-christian-groups/

The discussion on that other site was picked up by another commenter who attempted to interpret my words, so I concluded with this:

My distinction was between the group who Christ and the apostles considered the church of Christ (kingdom of God), and those it will rule over. The second group certainly will be followers of Christ. Any humans not following Christ in that second group won’t continue to live. So they could be defined as Christians also, since the word first was applied to followers of Christ. And that’s all it meant. It made no distinction between one Christian who would receive the kingdom and another who would not.

The only reason that scripture says there is one hope, even while other scriptures describe two distinct destinations, is because the purpose of the church’s preaching in the first century was to gather the kingdom of God. There is only one hope for the body of Christ which is the kingdom of God. People going to either destination get everlasting life. But in Ephesians Paul included the calling to go to heaven as part of the one hope he was describing there. See Ephesians 4:4, “in one hope of your calling.” The elect are the only people called by God to go to heaven and rule in his kingdom. “But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and possess it forever — yes, forever and ever” Daniel 7:18. And of course they cannot rule without someone to rule over. And other scriptures identify this second group.

Christ is mediator of both groups. Watchtower at times defines terms too precisely in its interpretations. In this instance WT discovered the ancient Greek word for mediator had a legal definition, I suppose like the word attorney. So WT reasoned the word only has to do with Christ establishing a legal covenant with his church to go to heaven. By doing that WT invalidated the complete truth of other scriptures, such as John 3:16. Even though WT is very familiar with that scripture, knowing it includes people on earth who Christ will be high priest over. And wasn’t the high priest in Israel a mediator between its population and God?

For more information see:

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You Cannot Teach Ignorant People to Accept Another Point of View

Because propaganda is rampant.

There are certain sayings or beliefs in the education field that it benefits job applicants to know. One is, “everyone can learn.” That’s a provable fact since we can all speak. However, not everyone can be taught to change their point of view, even with provable facts that contradict their beliefs. Most people can’t be taught to change a strongly held view. That’s a point that I believe about half of you will accept by the conclusion of this article. If people ever do change, what we call their point of view, they must decide to change that on their own. Why? Because propaganda is rampant. And part of most people’s beliefs is shaped by it, something no one will admit to; because practically everyone denies that about themselves. But it’s true.

Let’s leave religion out of this article while demonstrating this point. Instead I’ll prove my assertion using today’s political environment. Today we have the perfect opportunity to demonstrate this because of the constant hype regurgitated in media about President Trump. To restate my assertion: People will not change their point of view because of you. And you nor I can get them to change it by sharing facts, because their point of view has been so thoroughly shaped by accepting propaganda, even before you or I will speak to them. And I also asserted I can prove that to about half the readers reading this article.

Do I now refer to those who base a viewpoint on false information, that I claim I can prove this to? Of course not. I suspect most in that group will reject the assertion I made about them. While still holding to an erroneous view they will either reject the facts presented here, or convince themselves their view was not formed because of these facts but some other facts. And so I submit this group as proof of my assertions. And I invite any in this group to state what facts formed their view. If not the facts presented here, what facts? Because I also assert there are no true facts that logically lead to your opinion. And really facts are either true or what is said is not factual. They would instead be lies or at best only believed opinions.

Factoring all this in I believe the 50% of readers accepting my assertions as true will primarily come from people who did not accept the lies to be presented in this article. Now to prove my assertion I’m assuming about half the readers here are Democrats and about half Republicans. And possibly a small fraction of readers are outside the country who follow American news through organizations like CNN.

Propaganda is effective when it’s constantly reinforced. And today we have that constant reinforcement coming out of news sources like CNN. To the best of my memory, before the last four years, I’ve never heard any so-called televised news station spend almost every minute, day and night, distributing derogatory stories about the president of the United States. CNN and other televised news sources are not alone. These stories are also spread by politicians and American citizens who are against Trump. And most of the stories are lies or opinions rather than factual news.

Now that I’ve got your attention let me repeat my assertion a second or third time. I asserted that I would prove to about half the readers that another person could not change your point of view by presenting factual information. Why? Because your opinion has been shaped by propaganda. So here’s that proof:

One of the big stories bantered in the news and by Democrat politicians about Donald Trump is that he is divisive, and a racist. That idea is spread so thoroughly that in Trump’s debate with Joe Biden the host asked Trump if he would denounce white racists like the KKK. Also in the vice presidential debate Kamala Harris claimed Donald Trump called white racists “good people.”

But what are the facts? And will the facts change your point of view, if you believed CNN and Kamala Harris? I’ve asserted the facts will not. Factually president Trump has denounced white racism for years, and he is on record doing so. He’s been filmed doing so for years. And he’s been filmed doing so since he’s been president, way before these presidential debates. Factually in that Trump interview that Kamala Harris referred to, then right after president Trump said, “there were good people on both sides,” (speaking about the protesters who attempted to tear down a statue and the ones that opposed them tearing it down), then Trump said, I’m not talking about the white racists, they are not good.

So, like I said, your view is shaped by what you’ve been told to believe. Do you believe CNN, the other news sources that repeated that lie, and Kamala Harris that lied didn’t know what Trump actually said? Of course they knew what he actually said. They would be totally incompetent not to know that while making such a statement about a sitting US president, and therefore they would be unfit to be a legitimate news source or a vice president. To be informed all they had to do was view the recording of Trump’s statement like I did. However, what Trump said was not shown to you. Instead the recording of his statement was edited, and the part where he denounced the white racists wasn’t shown you.

So who factually acted as the divisive entities? Factually CNN, other news sources, Kamala Harris, and every other person who knew they were spreading that lie to the ignorant viewers acted as divisive entities. And here’s another shocker, you acted as a divisive entity if you spread that lie, even if you didn’t know it was a lie. But those others lied to you. The lie was constantly reinforced. And the lie was divisive, even while they (and possibly you) claimed the president used divisive statements in the interview Kamala Harris referenced.

So those other parties I mention above contributed to shaping your belief, which still has not changed has it? And again, you contributed to shaping that divisive thought in other people if you spread that lie. And that’s whether you knew it was a lie or not. That’s the effect of reinforced propaganda. Why is your belief still not changed if you believed that lie?  Because your view was already thoroughly shaped by propaganda before you read these facts I presented. Erroneous religious views are shaped in the same way. “A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest,” (from Paul Simon’s song titled The Boxer).

So How Can We Know Truth About God?

Some people will hear the truth about God from someone speaking it, but deny its power to draw them to God, and deny the authenticity of the one who shared those truths. Perhaps they will believe those speaking the truth about God speak only their own opinions. So many churches claim they only teach the Bible. But no Christian teacher does that. Still the most important ideas about God that are spoken from Christ’s actual church members do not originate with themselves. And the Bible does not claim they learned those ideas from other men, and the opinions other men have about what the Bible says. The Bible claims Christ’s real church members learn the truths about God from Christ sending his Holy Spirit to them, and in doing so disclosing those truths through his Holy Spirit. I’m talking about the most important truths, not everything about God. None of us know that. See 1Corinthians chapter 13:12.

So how can we know God? Christ said of his followers who receive Holy Spirit and stay in his word, “you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.” Christ has a church, a congregation of people. And he lets them know God’s truth by sending them his Holy Spirit (Revelation 5:6). Only if he and his father accept a human as a member of that church will they understand the truths God wants them to (Luke 8:10). If they are not accepted into that church they will believe religious propaganda, because what they know will only come from men, those men who wrote scripture and those men who explain it to them. And we see the result of that. So many churches claiming they only teach scripture, but they have different opinions about scripture among themselves. And many people belong to a totally different religion, a non-Christian one. So what is taught often is similar to religious propaganda in and outside of churches claiming Christianity. It causes some of their members who are not part of Christ’s real church to turn away from the religion they once had, leave God, and become atheists.

John chapter 16:

12 I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it. 13However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come. 14He will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you. 15Everything that belongs to the Father is Mine. That is why I said that the Spirit will take from what is Mine and disclose it to you.

John 5:6 Then I saw a Lamb who appeared to have been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which represent the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

Luke 8:10 He replied, “You are permitted to understand the secrets of the Kingdom of God. But I use parables to teach the others so that the Scriptures might be fulfilled: ‘When they look, they won’t really see. When they hear, they won’t understand.’

“But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true—it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ.” 1John 2:27

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Isn’t It Time You Moved On?

There are tens of thousands of people online that complain about what WT did to them. And many of those cry online about the emotional and psychological damage that was done to them, by Watchtower. Isn’t it time to move on?

Addressing commenters on other websites is where I get material to develop a lot of the articles I post on this blog. Often I post the exact words that I posted as a commenter on those other websites. And so it is with this article. Below is the final comment I posted after a couple back and forth postings between me and another commenter on another website. She was crying about how Watchtower and Jehovah’s Witnesses misled her, and how hurt she is because now she knows she might have to die, instead of living forever without dying, an idea put in her head by accepting decades of WT teachings. And so my final post to her read:

That might be true of some. But you need to move on and forget about what WT did, at least in a certain way forget about it. I mean don’t hold it as so important. It’s better to value the truth you know now than think WT hurt you, and that was such a bad thing.

You know I was in for 40 years myself, and a servant in three congregations. Still I don’t hold WT as doing some great big bad thing to me. It was because of the work of JWs that I started serving God. None of my grown kids do now. They are all hung up on what WT told them, and how they were misled not to go to college, that the end was near, and other crap. Just to show you how stupid that is I went back to college when I was 49 and got a degree and became a teacher. And I told them to do the same thing, while they were living with me, which they still do. (I didn’t care what WT said about it). Fact is they never really got off their rear ends and they blame WT, when that’s not WT’s fault.

WT is really not to blame for much except apostasy. And that is something it will have to answer for before Christ, not me. There are only two things to do about it. You can be like those first century Christians who started following Christ, despite most of them coming from apostate religions, or you can feel hurt because of your experience in your ex-religion and sulk in the hurt feelings. Or a third thing you can leave God. I suggest the first course.

Most every ex JW site is primarily made up of people throwing pity parties about being a JW or what WT does and did. I don’t see God has any use for that. Rather than thinking about what WT told you I suggest contemplating your relationship with God. If you know more about God than WT taught you, I believe you would. But many here, I doubt if they do. Not knowing what you know I suggest getting to know God better. You might start by getting to know who Christ really saves, not who WT taught you is saved.

You should know this. God still cares deeply about you. I know that for sure. He still contacts people. I know because he contacted me during the most difficult time of my life. Yes miraculously, just like in your Bible stories. Here read this, it will debunk the false teachings that God stopped contacting some of his servants. I wrote the article, and I know it’s true from personal experience. But my experience harmonizes with scripture. Check those scriptures out: http://debatescripture.org/index.php/2020/01/12/when-are-the-gifts-of-the-spirit-done-away-with/

Christ said most of the people followed him, when he was on earth, because of the miracles he did, not because of who he was or what he taught. They followed because they thought they could see a miracle or get some other benefit from being in his presence. That’s what he meant when he said “you followed me because you ate” (the bread and fishes). Their eating was miraculous, because he did a miracle for them to eat. I’m not aware of any scripture that claims even one person stood up and said not to kill him when he was crucified. But we don’t have to be like them. We don’t have to be self-centered. We can actually know God. So who cares what WT did and is doing when we can know God. Let Christ deal with them. Move on.